Jon: 0:00

Welcome to Just Say hey, the podcast podcast where I talk about the things that matter to small farms, because, well, I am a small farm. Today is a difficult topic. Today is tough. I want to talk about a very controversial topic. It gets a lot of news coverage, but I want to deal with it as it pertains to small farms, and that's immigration. It's difficult and it is challenging to talk about because it is such an emotionally charged situation. I mean, right now, mass deportation is going on. You know, those things that are happening, you know can they have emotional impact, and so people are charged about it. What I want to talk about, though, is how the this population impacts agriculture, because the agricultural community gets pulled into this because of arguments like our vegetable costs are going to go up if we don't have access to this, this workforce. Yeah, the costs may go up, but it also causes some some challenges, and I want to talk about small farms, because the farms that are growing produce and doing these things are not small farms, and the guy who's growing tomatoes here locally can't sell his produce, because he can't sell it as cheap as somebody on one of these large farms can sell it, truck it and get it all the way here, get it all the way to our grocery store cheaper than he can grow it himself. So I think you know, I think there are some challenges and some competitive advantages disadvantages that go on because of this issue that I think we should deal with and I think, as small farmers, there's going to be some changes going on and we need to be aware, be cognizant, be watching and, and, more importantly, be communicating and talking about these issues. Even if you're wrong, even if your opinion is wrong and you eventually change your mind. We have to be able to talk about this openly, without animosity, without the anger and the vitriol yeah, cool word there um, that that I see so much on this issue. You know there's not many of us that are from here Our parents, grandparents, great, great, great, great grandparents, whatever we're immigrants from somewhere and I think that has to come into our thinking. But at the same time, we have the right and the responsibility to guide and shape what we want for the future of this country, for our children and grandchildren, and so I think it's a complicated issue, so let's get into it. Welcome to Just Say hey the podcast where we talk about what matters to small farms, whether it's business, marketing, agronomy, equipment, livestock. If it matters to small farms, we'll probably talk about it here, so let's get into it.

Jon: 3:33

If you have never been to Ellis Island, I highly encourage you to take a tour. Fascinating place. If you don't know what it is, it's an island, a quick ferry ride from the Statue of Liberty. It's an island where a lot of immigration, during the old era of mass migration they call it it was the 1880s to like the 1930s, late 19th, early 20th century happened due to political unrest, economic upheaval in Italy, in Russia, in Europe, asia. So a lot of immigration. The Asian immigration mostly happened through the West Coast of the US, but there was a lot of immigration that came in through there, and there was, you know, anyway. It was just fascinating.

Jon: 4:21

You didn't automatically just get to come into this country. Our grandparents, great grandparents, great, great, whatever didn't just get off the boat and walk in. There was a process and in that process there were questions, 20 or 30 questions asking about you know your identity, your financial, your health, and then what you're planning to do, what your future? What are you planning to do here? Do you have a job waiting for you? Do you have, and this was all you know. You got to remember. This is industrial revolution. This is, you know, that time of that time in our history. You didn't get to just walk in here. They shoved you down a different stair, staircase and you either went into quarantine, you went into a more thorough health examination, or you got deported and sent back to where you came from, because it was just the process.

Jon: 5:14

So you know, the argument that we're all descendants of immigrants is mostly true, but there was a process. Was it as advanced and as complicated? And, you know, do we have a good process now? That is up for debate. I get that, and maybe not. Maybe we need complete overhaul of our immigration process. So you know, I don't want to get too deep into that, but I think it frames what we're going to talk about now, and that is, you know, small farms, ours.

Jon: 5:47

Does we struggle with labor shortages? We struggle with I mean heck, have you ever tried to get a high school kid to throw bales anymore? I remember when I was in grade school and high school man, I thought I was king of the world when I made eight cents a bale, got paid by the bale, and I'm sure a lot of you did the same thing through thousands of bails over a summer. I thought that was great. Uh, I thought I was king of the world and I think the most I ever made was 10 cents a bail for throwing bays. You pick them up, throw them on the cart or you're in the cart throwing them.

Jon: 6:18

But when you look at the labor shortage is why small? Why the, the? The large farms are having issues so they hire, they, they kind of piecemeal out undocumented labor and we sort of have this don't look, don't tell process the. The penalty for hiring an undocumented worker is a couple hundred bucks, 300, 500 bucks, something like that. You can go through hiring agencies, employment agencies and do it that way, kind of insulate yourself a little bit. We don't, but it doesn't completely insulate you because Purdue just lost a big case and I think it was just this year. Purdue had to pay $2 million for undocumented I believe it was undocumented and child labor in one of their poultry processing plants.

Jon: 7:28

It comes back to the small farmer is if let's say we're going to do this legally and we're not going to compete, we're not going to talk about in for the moment here, we're not going to talk about a farm that's hiring undocumented workers and paying them nothing and abusing them. We're going to say, two companies are going to the letter of the law and hiring employees and you can't find a worker. So what does a large farm do? Well, there is a process called the H-2A visa and what it does is it allows you to bring in workers from outside the US. You have a fee structure to pay them, where you have to pay them a competitive pay rate and you have to pay some fees. But when you hire somebody through that process, the numbers are pretty different if you're a small farm trying to hire one versus a large farm hiring 50. And I ran the numbers just because I was curious about it. So if you wanted to hire one H-2A worker, go through all the legal fees, which it's a lot, and you wanted them for, say, six months let's say you wanted this person for six months through a harvest that H-2A worker would cost about $40,000 for six months, whereas if you're a large farmer, that same employee making the same amount of money would cost that large farm $26,000. No-transcript.

Jon: 9:14

I think if you look at the undocumented side, I think there are some potential moral, ethical issues in that because an undocumented person doesn't have the benefit of protection under the law. You know, let's say you're a farm and you're hiring a guy who is illegal, doesn't, doesn't have legal rights in this country, what happens when you start abusing him? He can't go to the police, he can't go to any type of an authority and say, hey, this guy's being a jerk, he's not paying me because you don't have any rights. So I think you know we have this challenge of finding a solution in all of this and if you're a small farmer you know that's not really a solution, there's not a good one. Whereas a large farm can mitigate risk, can.

Jon: 10:18

It's a heck of a lot cheaper to hire illegally and get the slap on the wrist than it is to hire legally. I mean, the numbers show you that. I mean, even at $26,000, that person in that H-2A program only takes home about $14,000 of that $26,000. That person in that H-2A program only takes home about $14,000 of that $26,000. Only about $14,000. In that $39,000 for the guy hiring one H-2A employee, that number is still the worker's, only making $14,000. There is, you know, there's. You know that's a big discrepancy. Where does the rest of that money go? Administrative costs, bureaucratic costs. So you know, I think that's a challenge we face in trying to come up with a solution to this problem.

Jon: 11:33

So, as I'm sitting here recording this podcast, I don't think this one will get released for a couple weeks, but the Senate is going, I think, RF lot of talk about changing stuff in that program and HHSs over USDA, the FDA, the CDC. We're going to start seeing a lot of changes coming up, a lot of conversations talking about agriculture and this is so important for us as small farmers to stay on top of and talk about this. Make sure that you know, if you know people who are senators or you know in the political eye, if they're policymakers, if they're anything, we need to be talking to them, making sure that, whatever plans they are trying to come up with to solve this, that they are keeping the industry, keeping us in mind, because the current policies don't favor the small farmer. No, they don't. I mean, the H-2A program is just a perfect example. I have to pay $40,000 for the same guy that a large farm pays $26,000 for, and bureaucracy is what causes that difference and the worker doesn't see any benefit. Doesn't see any benefit. Working for a small guy, work for a big guy, it doesn't matter to him, he's getting the same 14K for that six months worth of work. So you know, when you look at, when we look at these things that we're talking about here, remember I don't want an unfair advantage, I don't. I want, I want a level playing field. I think there are advantages that being a small farmer has. And when we see all this chaos going on around us, remember there's opportunity there and that opportunity may be talk to your legislators radius, maybe you know there are opportunities that could be that you can see potential in Saves the grocery store money in trucking, say you know there's things that can be done, but policy drives a lot of this stuff. And you know that guy in out West who's hiring a, an undocumented worker paying nothing and then selling cheap vegetables. Well, that's a don't ask, don't tell kind of look at an unfair practice that puts you, the small farmer, at a disadvantage.

Jon: 14:13

So you know the argument about this in agriculture. There's two sides to this argument and a lot of the media tries to play the heartstrings of all the poor farmers not going to be able to find any workers. And you know what? I don't know any small farmer Personally. I mean I'm not sure. I'm not saying they're not out there, but I don't know anybody personally who hires illegal workers. I mean there, but I don't know anybody personally who hires illegal workers. I mean, I don't, I don't know anybody, I don't know. You know, heck, most of us are scraping by, doing it ourselves or family and friends, and you can't hire, you know, like I said earlier, you, you know, when we look for labor, you can't find people who want to work. So I get that side of the argument. But you know, there has to be a more equitable you know, more equitable uh solution.

Jon: 15:10

Why, you know, why do we struggle to compete so bad? And that's, you know, part of it is scale. It's why big business has an advantage over small. I think the thing we need to, I think one thing we need to look at is, you know, competitive, being competitive in our business. And most farmers I know they farm because they really like it. I mean, it's a life it's.

Jon: 15:39

You know you do get up and do the things you like to do. The thing you don't like to do is the business side of it, if you're, you know, like most of the guys, I know, I like the business side. I want to be competitive. We work really hard to raise a really high-end crop and I want to be competitive. I want to be able to look at anybody else who does this product. I want to do it better, better. But that is the kind of mindset you have to have to, especially and I'll say, commodity crops maybe not, I don't know a ton about that, but you know you have to be.

Jon: 16:26

You have to want to be competitive as a small farmer because you're running a business, and that's the downside of a lot of these arguments the well, while we farm, it's what we do, and most guys get up every morning and love the work. Man, you got to love the work and I do too. I get up and I love the work. I like the hard work. I like the dirty, the grimy, the you know, being covered in dirt and hay and dust, you know, other than paying for it, I like when. I even like working on equipment when it breaks down. I like, you know, I like that process, the chaos of it, the you know. I just love that whole process. But I'm also I'm also a business guy. I like being the best and that mindset is what allows businesses to succeed.

Jon: 17:18

And when you farm, there's that double standard that people have in farming and that is they love to do it. But you also got to love to do the business side of it. And again I say, it's probably not as much for commodity farmers because you're trying to grow mass. It's just a different. And your metrics of success, while monetary, are probably more based around volume rather than quality, I have a competitive product to sell. I can stand there and put my product up against almost anybody's product in our area and give you reasons why I think mine is the best, why I think we are better. And it's not arrogance, it's that you know. I want to make a promise to people that, look, I do everything I can to provide the best product I can, the best crop I can, do everything I can to provide the best product I can, the best crop I can, and I do that consistently, year over year. And I think that's an advantage because customers can buy. You can buy your hay from one guy one year and another guy the next year and your quality changes. The types of grass change, the forage quality, the nutritional value all of that changes when you deal with one guy who works really hard at it, and this is, you know, something you're passionate about. I think you can. My advantage is repeatability. Not only quality, but repeatability.

Jon: 18:49

You know, I think there's a lot to talk about there and small farms need to take that kind of a mindset when they talk about, you know things we can do to make this situation better. Well, I think we need to start thinking about policy. 91% of all small, all farms are small farms. Some you know there's a lot of them that are micro farms under $10,000 a year, micro farms under $10,000 a year. But they're never going to be businesses until we give them some till.

Jon: 19:21

We give farms some sort of a you know a way to do it, a way to make a reward quality, not just quantity. For example, I mean guy who spends money on fertilizer and grows really great tomatoes and has them tested and knows the nutritional quality, against something that is being shipped in here in a container kept in inert gases, kept from ripening in tankers and inert gases that kills off the, the probiotics and all the things that you need, but it looks pretty when you get it to the grocery store. I think that quality needs to be rewarded. It has advantages in. You know if you want to talk about the environment, you know if you're bringing in a tomato from whatever South American company you're doing it from, that tomato probably has to get planted, and same things we have to do here. But then it has to get on a train and then on a ship and then unloaded from a ship and then sent out to a distribution facility, kept cold in a refrigerated, trucks and buildings. All of this takes power. Remember, all of this takes power.

Jon: 20:34

Before it gets distributed to the grocery store, as that fruit gets ripe at the right time, there's a lot of people that will argue health benefits of that are just not what they should be. So the quality of having maybe a tomato that might not look as physically perfect but has a higher nutrition content content should be rewarded. The fact that that tomato didn't have to drive all over the world to get to your grocery store, having a lower environmental impact, should be rewarded. And maybe grocery stores get a tax incentive for buying produce from a 50 mile from that's grown within a 50 mile radius. I don't know. There are. You know there are options like that and if you know people who are in politics, whether it's your local guy, whether it's a regional or a state or a national guy, we should be be in their ear, letting them know that the decisions they're going to be making in the coming months, weeks, months, years, that they should be thinking about the small guys, the small farmers in their area. So you know, the other thing you can do and I'm a big fan of you know in all of this chaos is going to there's going to come opportunity.

Jon: 21:59

You know we talked about can't find workers. Well, you know how we had to solve that problem was we mechanized? I mean we changed the bale formats, we chose to go with large square bales it's called a mid-square. We do the three by three, by eights, and we use machines practices because couldn't find guys. You know, couldn't find guys to pick up bales. So you know we chose a different process.

Jon: 22:32

I think if you are a small farmer and you've got eggs or vegetables or whatever and you want to make a business out of that, be a direct to consumer business, build a brand that builds trust and that brand is just you, you are your brand. That builds trust, builds confidence in your product and hopefully then you can develop a market for it and turn that. We've got a bunch of friends that'll come out and help us. We make it easy. We, all of our tractors and all of our equipment has air conditioning and we're working in the heat of the summer here and if you live in Illinois in the middle of the summer you know 104 degrees, 105 degrees with. You know 99% humidity is pretty common. Those are things you can do to help with the employee test. Those are just things we did on our farm.

Jon: 23:29

I think you know, when you look at the policy reforms, we should, you know, look at how policies impact really reward local farmers and local retailers for local, because not only can there be health benefits but the environmental impacts that we just talked about, with transportation costs and fuel and power and all of this to keep that tomato in the perfect state from where it left Argentina to, you know, when it gets to your grocery store. You know, again, tax incentives. I think another thing that could be talked about is, you know, some of the undocumented workers stuff, because I think there's a moral question that we have to ask ourselves about the potential for abuse, whether it's financial, physical potential for abuse, whether it's financial, physical, whatever that is, you know, should there be harsher penalties for people that pay those type of workers? I know that wouldn't be popular in the agricultural world. I mean it might not be popular, but I mean it's an option to keep you know.

Jon: 24:41

Again, in any of the businesses that I've ever been in, I don't want an unfair advantage. I don't want to. You know, it's like playing sports. I want to beat you when you are at your absolute best and I'm at my absolute best and I want to try to win. I don't want to go run a race against you when you've got a broken leg and then tell everybody that I beat you. That's not the way I want to do it. I want to win because I work hard, I work smart, I do these things and I want to win. And so I think some of the things that can be done just level the playing field. Level the playing field for us.

Jon: 25:22

What's worked on your farm? I mean, what do you guys do? Send me some comments. What do you guys do? I'd love to talk about it. What have you done on your farm to kind of combat these issues that you're seeing? I think another. I'll encourage you follow the USDA, the FDA and the USDA closely to see the changes and look for those advantages that it might provide you and your farm and your business.

Jon: 25:48

And talk to your legislators as things are happening. I mean, let them know your opinion, because you know what Every legislator, every person in politics that I know they may not care about you but they sure do care about your vote. So you know we need to be letting them know what things are important to us, otherwise they're just going to make it up. You know, talk to them. Most of the guys are pretty easily accessible. So you know, with that, have a wonderful day. I know it's a complicated issue we've been talking about, but understand both sides, talk about it, kind of formulate your opinion where you stand on these issues, because, man, we've got a lot of change coming up here in the next six months, I think in the coming year. So, anyway, good luck, god bless.